How To Develop Healthy Sleep Habits (with Hilary McClinton and Nicole Shallow, BCBAs)

Hilary and Nicole join Erika to share more about their work with families towards healthy sleep. If you or a family member has any challenges with sleep, this is a great conversation with some solid takeaways. Nicole shares their best advice for healthy sleep habits and Hilary shares some wisdom for parents of babies and young children to set them up for long-term sleep success.

Interview Highlights:

  • Nicole and Hilary are experts in supporting families who struggle with sleep with their children and specialize in providing sleep solutions for children over the age of two right through to adulthood. They also offer parent coaching for behavioral health through their consulting practice. [1:30]
  • Erika and Nicole did their Master’s degree together. They had one class where Nicole was challenged by their Professor to take on sleep, so she brought it up to Hilary, who was her supervisor at that time. They both agreed to do it. Nicole’s interest started to blossom from there. She has her own personal experience with sleep problems. [3:38]
  • Hilary just had her youngest child around the time they tackled sleep. Hilary struggled with sleep deprivation with her youngest and that led her to start looking into sleep with a behavior analytic lens. [4:46]
  • Nicole and Hilary talk about Dr. Matthew Walker’s book, “Why We Sleep: Unlocking the Power of Sleep and Dreams“. They delved into the science of sleep and looked into child development, what would be typical at various ages, what to expect with sleep, and what skills do kids have at various ages that you can take into account when you’re working on sleep. They also looked into Acceptance and Commitment Training, which Hilary has some experience in. [7:55]
  • Some of the common situations that Nicole and Hilary come across are fading the parent out of the bedroom and getting enough sleep. Also, how to extend sleep, how to get them to sleep longer, how to get them to go to sleep a bit earlier or faster. [9:31]
  • Hilary shares that they also work with the whole family at once. One example is about siblings. If one child isn’t sleeping, pretty much the household isn’t sleeping. So often other sleep habits pop up that are unhealthy for siblings, or parents may get into some unhealthy sleep patterns too. They also tackle other sleep habits, not just for the individual child for whom the initial referral was for. [10:14] 

“Two-year-olds sleep very differently than a 10-year-old, but you need [a solution] that works for everyone [in the family].” — Hilary McClinton

  • Melatonin is one of the most common strategies families have tried that isn’t working. It is usually the first line of defense when there are sleep issues, but melatonin itself only tackles falling asleep. It helps you fall asleep faster, but it doesn’t actually help you sleep longer and it can interrupt your natural melatonin levels. [11:58]
  • Often parents try things like a nightlight, a different blanket, a weighted blanket, turning the hall light on, or an activity before bed. Sometimes they do try technology because it’s what calms everybody’s mind. There’s always a variety of things that parents may have run through that they’ve heard about, like the Groclock. Those can be all helpful but it completely depends on what the sleep problem is. [12:50]
  • Often families come to Nicole and Hilary when they’re so tired and they’ve tried the basic things and nothing seems to be working. Maybe they’ve tried to fade themselves out, but it caused such an upset that it was really hard to do, so they need more support in navigating that. [14:27]
  • Nicole and Hilary work with families usually for two to three weeks. Typically, they start with an interview. They start talking about the sleep problem and learning more about family values to figure out what’s going on. They come up with some options, talk with the family about what those options are, and map out a plan that is a good fit for them and doable. Sometimes they do more piecemeal support, depending on the requests of the family, but this process may take a bit longer. [16:18]

“Try to develop a healthy bedtime routine that’s consistent as well as a daytime routine that’s consistent.” — Nicole Shallow

  • Sleep fluctuates when kids are young. One day they’ll have a great nap, the next day they won’t. From Hilary’s experience, especially with her first, she would get uptight and worried when things started to go off track. She took a step back with her second child. Their sleep is so different, which means everyone’s sleep must be so different. [20:50]

“Sleep is important, but at the same time, everybody’s different. Every family’s different and what works for one family, isn’t going to work for another.” — Hilary McClinton

  • They are working on launching a new website soon. They are also accepting families and clients. Initially, they set up a free 15-minute intake call to know if they’re a good fit for the family, if their services are needed yet, or what kind of package they might suggest. [26:21]

Guests Bio:

Hilary McClinton is a mom of two boys, partner, and Behavior Analyst, also a Registered Autism Service Provider (RASP) in B.C. (Category A).  She has served on the BC-ABA board for two terms, working with colleagues to disseminate applied behavior analysis.

She has spent 20 years of her working career in some kind of position related to supporting the neurodivergent community, in schools, home or clinical settings. She has found her passions; one of those has been specializing in sleep. Hilary knows from experience how invaluable the gift of sleep is and it brings her joy to help families sleep again. She also enjoys supporting new BCBAs to find their own niche. Learning more about Acceptance and Commitment Training (ACT) has been a game-changer in supporting interns through their journeys. She continues to provide early intervention, incorporating her training in Early Start Denver Model (ESDM) into her practice. 

While she’s been practicing as a behavior analyst for over 10 years and gained experience in many roles, she feels the bulk of her learning has occurred in the past 6 years. She is practicing more in line with her values as a parent and clinician, while learning more about how she can serve compassionately, humbly, and with integrity.

Hilary McClinton Headshot

“It’s that ‘Why’ that’s really important. Why is this sleep problem happening? And then once you answer that, you have to figure out a plan that’s a good fit.”

— Hilary McClinton

Nicole Shallow is a Behavior Analyst in British Columbia, and also a Category A  Registered Autism Service Provider (RASP).

She has worked within the autism community for over 8 years in a variety of positions. Recently, her private practice has shifted to specializing in sleep for children, teens, and adults within the neurodivergent community. The support she provides to families is focused on empowering parents and professionals in collaborating and implementing practical solutions to help improve overall quality of life. 

Nicole knows from personal experience with sleep challenges how lack of sleep impacts overall mental and physical health individually, as well as for a whole family. She feels she is able to empathize and support others to sleep better. 

Nicole works collaboratively with families, children, and teens emphasizing relationships and values-driven goals.

Nicole Shallow Headshot

“I think there’s always a way to adjust sleep. It doesn’t have to be all at once and it’s a slow process depending on where everyone’s at, because we do recognize that the people we’re working with are very sleep deprived.”

— Nicole Shallow

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Read the Transcript:

Erika Ng

Welcome to Behavioral Health Collective podcast, a community of behavior analysts who are passionate about sharing evidence-based practices from the perspective of behavior science. We connect families and educators to information that promotes robust behavioral health in the home, community, and classroom. We are behavioral health practitioners who empower parents and caregivers by sharing behavioral resources that are current and evidence-based. 

At the Behavioral Health Collective, we set families and educators up for success by promoting meaningful and lasting behavioral health and skill development in the children or young people they work with.

Thanks so much for listening in today. I’m Erika Ng, the founder of the Behavioral Health Collective podcast. 

I’m really looking forward to speaking with fellow behavior analysts, Nicole Shallow and Hilary McClinton of Coastal Ridge Sleep Solutions in Maple Ridge, British Columbia. We’re going to talk about the basics of sleep, which probably is a common challenge for most families.

As a parent, you might be struggling with bedtime routine, insomnia, night wakings, or early waking, or challenging behavior surrounding bedtime. At times, this might seem like a life sentence of sleepless nights for both you and your child. This can affect your family, adult relationships in the home, and certainly everyone’s overall physical and mental health.

You may even be trying pharmaceutical interventions like Melatonin, but without complete success. You may feel like you’ve tried everything, but the good news is… there are behavioral strategies that can create positive, lasting change and better sleep habits for you and/or your child. 

Nicole and Hilary are experts in supporting families who struggle with sleep with their children and specialized in providing sleep solutions for children over the age of two right through to adult and also offering parent coaching for behavioral health through their consulting practice. So today they’ll share some insights about healthy sleep habits and shed some light on what sleep consultation can look like.

Hi there, Hilary, Nicole. How are you doing today?

Nicole Shallow

Good. 

Hilary McClinton

Good, how are you?

Erika Ng

Pretty good. Just trying to stay cozy in this rainy BC weather these days. 

Nicole Shallow

I know, I was nervous about the ‘bomb cyclone’ that they predicted was coming. I was like, what does that even mean? 

Erika Ng

What does that mean? Yeah. And then like atmospheric river was like another term that was thrown around, which sounds intense, but I guess that’s BC for us in the fall. So, good for reading books and staying inside. 

Hilary McClinton

Right. Includes Ethan, my son at home today, sick. So I’m also just trying to dodge whatever it is in my house right now. 

Erika Ng

Yeah. 

Nicole Shallow

Yeah. I highly recommend that you do. 

Erika Ng

Yes, yes. Oh boy. 

Well, thank you so much for taking the time to do this, also with your son at home and stuff. So I really appreciate you taking the time to have this conversation.

So, as sleep consultants, I’m really interested in speaking to you because you serve such a wide range of clients. And so you start from 2 to adult, is that correct? 

Nicole Shallow

Yeah. 

Hilary McClinton

Yeah. 

Erika Ng

Yeah and you know, various exceptionalities and not no diagnosis, a whole range of clients. Is that right? 

Nicole Shallow

Yep. 

Hilary McClinton

Yep. Neurodivergent and neurotypical.

Erika Ng

Yeah. Amazing. So, I really just wanted to get at today, I guess, some initial tips for families in terms of healthy sleep, but then also ask you some specific questions about your services and what that might look like if families have never reached out to a professionals to support with sleep. 

And maybe even some kind of asking a bit about at what point might a family want some help. So I guess just for starters, wondering how did you get into sleep? How did you decide that you wanted this to be your specialization and what got you excited about it in the first place?

Nicole Shallow

I guess I can jump in, ’cause it all started in our Master’s degree. So Erika and I did our Master’s degree together. We had one class and Erika, I don’t know if you remember, but Pat challenged someone to take on sleep. And I was like, Okay, so I brought that to Hilary who was then my supervisor. And we both were like, Yeah, let’s do that.

So I’d say that was like the initial start point. And then my interest just kind of started to blossom from there. I have my own personal experience with sleep problems. They come and go, like I just experienced a little blip with being sick so trying to get myself back on track. 

As well as having a new puppy, I am now realizing, Oh, this is what it’s like to be woken up early when you don’t want to be woken up. So it’s just like a window into kids and I’m not necessarily, it’s not exactly like children, but I’m kind of experiencing that same issue. So yeah, it’s, that’s kind of my blurb, I guess, like how it all started.

Hilary McClinton

And I think right around the time that you were bringing it up, I had just had my youngest. And, you know, my first with the one that kind of suckered us into having another, because he was a really good sleeper and my youngest was not. So I was really struggling with sleep deprivation as well and so the idea, it hadn’t occurred to me for whatever reason to look into our field.

No idea why. I was reading other books on parenting, etc, and nothing was really resonating. And then I started looking into sleep from our lens from kind of a behavior analytic lens and what we do and it just clicked. So then we tackled his sleep which then help with my sleep. Yeah, because my son, we tackled I think, and then that helped with my sleep.

So, and then we just went from there. 

Erika Ng

Okay. That’s amazing. So, some real life applications there, and yes, I do remember Nicole. Pat mentioned that a number of times to the class, like somebody’s got to do it, somebody’s got to do it. There’s toileting and feeding or taking care of, but someone’s got to do sleep.

So I’m so pleased that you guys have taken this on both in BC, but also elsewhere. Like, can I just ask, do you also consult telehealth outside of British Columbia? Have you been doing that?

Nicole Shallow

Yeah, it’s completely telehealth and we’ve done across, I think one client was in the UK, like just discussion through that support and then the States.

Thank goodness for telehealth.

Erika Ng

Yeah. No kidding. Yep. Definitely a silver lining from the pandemic. I’m sure of us realizing that, yeah. People can be reached all over the place, which is great. 

So, I imagine with your work, you come across other professionals and it’s very multidisciplinary and even in getting into this specialization, I’m sure you’ve done a lot of reading and other sciences ’cause there’s lots of other sciences that have research in sleep, but you also mentioned looking into our own field of behavior analysis. So, what are some of those other disciplines or areas of science that you’ve drawn on and you kind of integrate with behavior science?

Nicole Shallow

I’d say the first, I think the first thing that we did two is, we started with behavior analysis, but also really heavily dove into the science of sleep.

Because if you don’t understand sleep from that perspective, then it’s really hard to make educated plans or individualized plans based on that person and kind of reading the data, because the numbers only speak so much, but if you don’t know what actually is biologically sort of happening then it’s only going to get you so far, I think. 

So that was, I mean, the book, “Why We Sleep” was eye-opening, to say the least. It’s a book that I don’t recommend reading right before going to sleep. It can increase your anxiety about getting enough sleep but it’s a great one to just start with. 

Erika Ng

Okay. That’s helpful actually, so I can link that for folks. That’s kind of, that was your starting point, that book? 

Nicole Shallow

I’d say it was part of it, yeah. That was the science of sleep. That one was the jumping off point, for sure. 

Erika Ng

Okay. 

Hilary McClinton

You read his book, Dr. Matthew Walker’s book, which just kind of helps to understand why sleep is so important. And then we delved into the science of sleep or there’s time to sleep journals. We looked into child development, what would be typical at various ages and what to expect with sleep and kind of what skills do kids have at various ages that you can take into account when you’re working on sleep? And we looked into acceptance and commitment training, which I have more experience in just helping the psychological flexibility and technique that is needed.

As well as some of those barriers for parents sometimes, because sleep, working on sleep is hard. And, you know, there’s a lot of kind of barriers that comes up for us. And I see that as, because I experienced it too so supporting that as well, supporting parents that need to work on sleep for their kids.

We also often work alongside if we can OTs, because occupational therapists can sometimes help with regulating if needed, right? So particularly for the neuro divergent kids that we work with, sometimes they’re needing some assistance with regulation and getting their bodies ready for sleep, so then it can be helpful to be working with other disciplines there.

Erika Ng

Awesome. Okay. And so having such a wide range of clients and also, you know, various sciences you’re drawing on, could you distill down some common situations that you come across? Like, are there a few that stand out in your mind?

Nicole Shallow

I would say the most common one is fading the parent out of the bedroom.

Erika Ng

Okay. 

Nicole Shallow

I’d be curious what the data is on that, like if we did percentage wise, but that one is usually the hardest. Parents try to do that one on their own, but it’s a lot more difficult once you get started. So having that support has been helpful for families. Another one is like getting enough sleep. So how to extend sleep, how to get them to sleep longer, how do I get them to go to sleep a bit earlier, quicker? I’d say those are, that’s another really common one. 

Erika Ng

Hmm. Okay. And are you ever working with more than one child? They do work with the whole family if there’s like multiple kids and various sleep issues happening?

Hilary McClinton

Yeah. Actually, it’s siblings because it’s, if one child isn’t sleeping, pretty much the household isn’t sleeping. So often other sleep habits have popped up that are kind of unhealthy for siblings or parents have maybe gotten into some unhealthy sleep patterns too. So we often do have to tackle other sleep habits, not just the person that called us with sleep deprivation. 

Often it’s tackling everybody and figuring out what works for the entire family. So it’s not just what works for that child, but what can we integrate for the entire family, especially for kids that have different age ranges. Two year olds going to sleep very differently than a 10 year old, but you need something that works for everyone.

So we often run into that difficulty. 

Erika Ng

Okay. Yeah. So it’s very holistic and that, that’s so great to hear because you’re right, the family is like a whole unit. Everybody is influencing each other. So that’s great that your services are so wrapped around that way, considering everyone. 

So I’m a bit curious about things like melatonin or other supplements, ’cause I’ve heard that’s, you know, quite common for people to just, you know, as adults like self-medicate or maybe doctors are saying, Oh, try melatonin to encourage sleep. So are there other common strategies that you hear that families have maybe tried and are just not working? Cause I know melatonin maybe for some, they report that works, but then I know for a lot of families, they try it and it’s not effective. 

Are there other things that seem to families come to you and they say, We’ve tried this, we’ve tried that. Other things that are not effective or maybe like pitfalls that they can fall into?

Nicole Shallow

I think melatonin is probably the most common one that we get.

Where that is usually the first line of defense when there are sleep issues. But melatonin itself only tackles that falling asleep, that onset piece. So it helps you fall asleep faster, but it doesn’t actually help you sleep longer and it can interrupt your natural melatonin levels. And there’s a lot of things you can do to increase your natural melatonin production.

And there’s also a lot of things that we do that interfere with our natural melatonin production, like screens and light and all of that. So that’s something that we definitely look at and consulting with pharmacist or whoever the doctor was just to make sure is this really where we need to go, how do we fade this, and what does that look like? 

Erika Ng

Okay.

Hilary McClinton

I think often to parents we’ll try things like a nightlight or a different blanket or a weighted blanket or turning the hot light on, or they may try a seating activity before bed. Sometimes they do try technology because it’s what calms everybody’s time. There’s always kind of a variety of things that parents may have run through that they’ve heard about like the Gro clock. Using the clock that has the different lights that go on based on whether it’s time to get up or not to get up.

And those can be all helpful depending on what the sleep problem is. And it’s that Why that’s really important, right? Why is this sleep problem happening? And then once you answer that, you have to figure out a plan that’s a good fit. So sometimes it’s running through all of those things that you tend to hear about Google tells you about, or that parent groups might tell you about. Trying all of those things and then it’s not working that also can be quite a challenge.

Erika Ng

Okay. And I suppose, maybe that’s where that helpful lens comes from because as behavior analysts, that’s what we’re always asking, is like Why, what is the root here, as opposed to just throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks. So that’s helpful to hear, I guess, about your angle of how you would support a family.

So at what point would a family may be coming to seek your help? Like, do you have any thoughts or comments on when is a good time? So it’s maybe more proactive versus like too late and you’ve gone down and built up maybe unhealthy habits. 

Nicole Shallow

I mean, I think families come to us when they’re so tired and they’ve tried the basic things, like those recommendations that you’ll find on Google, your most popular blog posts, just your basic hygiene stuff. But they’ve tried all of that and it’s still not working. Maybe they’ve tried to fade themselves out, but it caused such an upset that it was really hard to do, so how, they need more support in kind of navigating that.

I don’t think it’s ever too late. I think there’s always a way to trying to adjust the sleep. It doesn’t have to be all at once and it’s a slow process depending on where everyone’s at because we do recognize that the people we’re working with are very sleep deprived. So, not trying to ask too much, too fast.

Erika Ng

I can imagine that’s where some of the act is quite helpful, you know when parents are really just at the end of themselves and they know what they want to do. They value that maybe the whole family’s health but it’s a difficult, yeah, some difficult steps. 

Nicole Shallow

Yeah, I’d say our approach is very, like, it’s very come alongside.

I’m not an expert model, but here let’s come alongside and how can we support you and kind of help guide you to the path of healthy sleep and feeling rested again.

Erika Ng

So, I’m also wondering a little bit more about the details of your services. So, and as you mentioned, everything is individualized, very specialized to that family and looking at the whole picture of that family, but roughly how long would you work with a family? Is there kind of an average length of time or what do your consultation services look like?

Hilary McClinton

It can depend on the sleep problems obviously. For the most part, I would say two to three weeks, it’s the main chunk of time that we spend with the family. So typically we start with an interview. We start with talking about the sleep problem, learning more about family values, figuring out what’s going to be a good set.

The why is the sleep problem happening? We come up with some options, talk with the family about what those options are, go through them, a map with a plan that is a good fit for them that they feel they can do. Sometimes that means the whole thing at once. Sometimes that means piecemealing. And so if we’re piecemealing, a process may take a bit longer and then supporting.

So we try to do some brainstorming and just supporting them through if we need to do, I mean it is all remote, but if we can do some kind of role-play and go through examples, et cetera, we try to adapt, a sleep diary is helpful. We do ask for sleep diaries just so they can keep track of how things are going and what’s changing, what we need to adjust and then we continue to monitor. 

So, so typically it can be anywhere from two to three weeks if we’re piecemealing and it can take a little bit longer. But for the most part, you can see changes in sleep within the first few days that we start working with a family. 

Erika Ng

Awesome. Okay. That’s quite clear. And I just wonder for families who have never received help I just want them to able to hear about what services look like. So that’s great to hear. 

Do you ever have families call for just like to bounce ideas off and do like a short, quick consult? Is that an option as well? 

Hilary McClinton

Yeah. Yeah. 

Erika Ng

Awesome. Okay. Do you have any key advice?

I mean, Nicole, you spoke a little bit earlier about some of those things that affect melatonin and do’s and don’ts, like that reduce our melatonin and get increase. Do you have any like one major piece of advice for families in terms of healthy sleep? 

Nicole Shallow

I think the, one of the main ones is trying to develop a healthy, like a bedtime routine that’s consistent as well as the daytime routine that’s consistent. I could jump into a lot of things. I, one thing’s really hard to pick actually right now screens are probably one of the most impactful things that are in disturbing sleep and I know kids love them. 

I love them. We all love them. But just monitoring screen use in the evening. So two hours before bed trying to break from the screens and just have some quiet time to allow the body to produce that natural melatonin, get ready for bed. And it starts to get ready for bed on its own so that hopefully by the time it’s time to go to sleep, feeling tired and that will make bedtime a lot easier.

Whereas if you have access to bright light, it makes you more alert and it can block melatonin up to 30 minutes if it’s bright enough. And screens are just keep our brains quite active. So for kids, I’d say like, if there are screens involved, trying to monitor that and look at where light is happening in the evening.

Cause melatonin’s triggered by light so once it’s dark, that’s when we started to get tired. 

Erika Ng

Okay. Okay. That’s, that sounds helpful. And I was, I’m curious and that’s a great tip. It sounds like for, you know, adults, children alike. 

What I’m really wondering about right now, just cause it’s kind of relevant to me as I’m, you know, I’m working with a young baby’s sleeping and I’m thinking to myself, I want to establish good patterns when, you know, from here on out.

So I’m doing a bit of sleep training right now. So you work with, you know, two and up. So do you have any advice for families with young children so they can start transitioning into good healthy habits right away? Like when they’re quite young. 

Hilary McClinton

Yeah. Relax. 

Erika Ng

Okay. 

Hilary McClinton

Sleep is important, but at the same time, everybody’s different, every family’s different, and what works for one family, isn’t going to work for another.

Sleep also fluctuates when kids are young. You know, one day they’ll have a great nap, the next day they won’t. Speak later, something will shift and that’s very common. I know from my own experience, especially my first, I would get uptight and worried when things started to go off track and I’d know that this is what sleep is supposed to look like and why doesn’t it and had to kind of take a step back with my second in real life.

Their sleep is so different, which means everyone’s sleep must be so different. So, okay. Let’s just take it down a notch. Consistency is important for our toddlers, but their parent is consistent a hundred percent of the time. So, as much as you can, have a routine that’s 15 to 20 minutes before bed, and that never changes. As much as you can, create a good sleep environment, dark enough, comfortable enough, and mimic that at nap time, if you can. 

Model sleep habits, talk about sleep early on, set at that starts to become a value as well. Talking about why do we sleep with kids at a level that they understand that, you know, sleeping helps us learn and it helps us focus. So let’s take care of our body.

Sometimes we get really irritated it’s because we haven’t slept and sleeping really well can help us with that. So I think just normalizing those conversations with kids too. So why sleep is important can help later on when they start to not want to go to bed, right? When you get into kind of the elementary years when a wedding bed is what starts to pop up.

But I think for parents really just, toddlers are just fascinating little beings and you just, in a lot of ways have no control over what happens that the best you can do is try to keep those routines, try to keep that consistency, and just know that one day off isn’t going to make or break the sleep routine, isn’t going to make a break healthy sleep. 

So be kind to yourself. It’s okay to have those hiccups and kind roll with it because those toddler years, there’s a lot of big growth and a lot of it changes and that can interrupt sleep on its own. It’s nothing you’re doing. It’s just their body figuring stuff and that’s okay.

Erika Ng

Okay. Wow. That is really helpful, personally. So, yeah. Thank you, Hilary. I think I do need to relax a little bit sometimes, ’cause I, I do feel very uptight about sleep right now and like, Got to get it right, but it’ll change.

Nicole Shallow

Oh, my gosh. 

Hilary McClinton

Nicole has any puppy and she’s struggling with sleep, too.

Erika Ng

I’m just curious. Are you applying any of your same, like, do you do a routine with the dog? I actually don’t know, like are you using, applying any of your same strategies with your puppy right now? 

Nicole Shallow

Trying to make sure he goes to the bathroom right before bed. That’s definitely one and limiting food and water a couple of hours before sleep.

Has it helped? Hmmm… sometimes. 

Erika Ng

Oh, boy. 

Nicole Shallow

Yeah. 

Erika Ng

Well, I’m sure he’ll get older at some point and they figure out of it, but I can say that’s.

Nicole Shallow

Fingers crossed. 

Erika Ng

Yeah, hopefully, hopefully. 

So you did mention that book earlier about ‘The Science of Sleep’, do you have any other, aside from your Instagram, any other great resources for families if they’re curious about trying out some strategies and just kind of delving into it?

Hilary McClinton

Dr. Canapari has a really good book and he also has a really helpful website which is a little tough to navigate. It, it’s not like super user-friendly and he never listened to this, but it’s got some good info and often I refer them to one section talks about melatonin. So he has a really nice video that just explains how the way sleep cycle works and where melatonin comes into it.

And I think it’s really helpful for parents to understand that sleep/wake drive because that can help you kinda problem solve as you’re trying to figure out your child’s sleep. And then his book has a ton of different strategies for various sleep problems, which is very user-friendly, and have to use some of these checklists and stuff to go through. 

And the Sleep Foundation is a good website as well. They have good information on typical sleep some age-related sleep issues that you may be tackling that can also be a good place to go to quickly problem-solve. So.. 

Erika Ng

Okay. 

Nicole Shallow

I think those are like the best ones to start with.

Erika Ng

Okay. And The Science of Sleep as well. Okay. 

Hilary McClinton

Yeah. And ‘Why We Sleep’ is Dr. Walker’s.

Erika Ng

Okay, Why We Sleep – Dr. Walker. Great. So I can link all that. And I’ll also link your Instagram, cause I think you guys have great information online as well for families. So, that is a help, probably a helpful place to start to. Very accessible. 

So I’m curious also, do you have anything coming up with your own practice? 

Nicole Shallow

We are accepting families and clients, so setting up a free 15-minute intake call is always a great way to just know if we’re a good fit or if maybe our services are needed yet, or what kind of package we can kind of suggest.

Hilary McClinton

Try to send my website as well will be some blogs. We’ll be working on some courses, working on some parent, family resources. As well, quick videos, etcetera any website is to handle all of that, to be able to handle video and kind of how to navigate all of that. So that’s hopefully coming out next month.

So we’ll be able to provide more resources for families that’s more accessible.

Erika Ng

Okay. That’s very exciting. Okay. Well, I will when that is out, then I’ll be sure to link this with this conversation. So, that’s uh that’s great to know. 

Well, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate you just sharing what you do.

And some of those really helpful takeaways for families who really need that helps so. Much appreciate it, and that, good luck with your website and your upcoming courses and such unique resources. 

And good luck with your dog. 

Hilary McClinton

Thanks for having us. 

Nicole Shallow

Yup. 

Erika Ng

Have a great afternoon. 

Nicole Shallow

Thanks, Erika. 

Hilary McClinton

Thanks, you too.

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